mardi 20 octobre 2009

Mystagogy posts certainly false allegation on St Robert Bellarmine

Here are comments before John starts deleting them (see threat further down):

Anonymous said...
John,

Thanks for posting this, a very informative article.

Regards,

George F

August 10, 2009 12:37 AM
Hans-Georg Lundahl said...
About this:

The Mexican authorities do not exclude the possibility that his murderer was driven to his act through some sort of fanaticism

Since they are doing what they can to enflame Anticatholic fanaticism in masonic or atheist versions, they cannot exclude that he was murdered for being a so nearly Catholic Christian. And since it would look back for them to admit to being themselves the ground for that, that remark is very prudent, without being a direct lie.

October 20, 2009 9:52 AM
Hans-Georg Lundahl said...
In fact already during two earlier occasions, namely in 1327 and 1331, the Popes John XXII and Clemens VI had condemned and anathematized any one who dared deny that the Apostle Paul during his entire apostolic life was totally subordinate to the ecclesiastical monarchical authority of the first Pope and king of the Church, namely the Apostle Peter. And a lot later Pope Pius X in 1907 and Benedict XV in 1920, had repeated the same anathemas and the same condemnations.

When St Thomas Aquinas comments on St Paul correcting St Peter in the context whether fraternal correction may be adressed to superiors, he admits that St Paul was in a way equal to St Peter. Only in a way.

The meeting at Genezareth is by Roman Catholics interpreted as if the other apostles too are under the shepherdship of St Peter, not as if he is merely restored to equality with them.

But when this worthy man calls the prerogatives of the Pope "dictatorial" he forgets they are no more dictatorial than those of a bishop according to St Ignatius of Antioch "Do NOTHING without the bishop". But when he says ALL Church Fathers say St Peter was only equal to other apostles, he forgets St Augustine, maybe some others as well.

October 20, 2009 10:25 AM
Hans-Georg Lundahl said...
In the columns of a Portuguese book review, I replied: "The reality is that due to this infallibility you are the only Christians who cannot be certain about what they will demand that you believe tomorrow". My article ended with the following sentence: "Soon, the road you walk, you will name the Lord vicar of the Pope in heaven".

Maybe true for them that claim we must see buddhism as a road to Heaven because John Paul II hugged Dalai Lama or André Vingt-Trois greeting the arrival of Buddha's relics with a greeting of "solidarity with" the Buddhists - against which I protested.

NOT true for them who claim that Assisi meeting of 1986 is proof JohnPaul II was:

- a Pope neglecting the pastoral care and even faith required of his office (Mgr Lefèbvre)

or

- a Pope materially but not formally (as a corpse is to full manhood, so to speak - abbé de Nantes)

or

- a heretic and hence not validly elected to Papacy (sedisvacantist position)

or who try very eagerly to diminish the significance of that gesture ("he did not pray with buddhists/hindoos/Jews/Moslems, only side by side with them" - Soc. of St Peter, Le Barroux, Institute of Christ the King)

October 20, 2009 10:33 AM
Hans-Georg Lundahl said...
To clarify my first comment: in Mexico Roman Catholic priests too face martyrdom. They have done so since 1917 and since the Cristero rising failed.

October 20, 2009 10:35 AM
John Sanidopoulos said...
Actually St. Ignatius says: "Do nothing without the bishop or presbyters." But he says this only in the context of preserving unity in the local church, so people won't establish their own churches apart from the apostolic traddition. There is thus no dictatorship here, and it is very different from the model of the papacy.

Also, most Orthodox do not consider Augustine a Church Father. Nor would they support that he was an advocate of papal authority over all other bishops.

October 20, 2009 10:38 AM
Hans-Georg Lundahl said...
"Cardinal Bellarmine, who was declared a Saint by the Latin Church, says this simply: "If the Pope some day imposed sins and forbade virtues, the Church is obliged to believe that these sins are good and these virtues are bad"."

Source please!

I suspect the quote is from a place in his works where he is not stating his own opinion, but those of oponents he will dispose of. Or enumerating positions between which he will then make a decision, and he will reject that one.

As when St Thomas Aquinas begins the Article Whether God exists with the words

"It would seem that God does not exist.

Firstly, whenever one of two opposites is infinite the other is non-existent. But of God we understand that He is infinite goodness. Therefore, if God existed no evil would exist.

Secondly ..."

Only AFTER THAT does he get to the Christian answer which only after that he does defend, and only after that does he answer first and second objections (I think there was no third one on that article, but very often the objections are three as when Satan three times quoted the Bible to its Author) - similarly with the position attributed to St Bellarmine, he must have been quoting someone else's opinion. The one this author attributed to him has always been considered heresy.

October 20, 2009 10:43 AM
Hans-Georg Lundahl said...
I googled for the quote - http://o-x.fr/ior - and as you can see no source wheresoever says this about St Robert Bellarmine except this bishop Paul, who may have misunderstood him in the way I stated.

October 20, 2009 10:49 AM
Hans-Georg Lundahl said...
Unfortunately one of these blogs - the Theotokos blog in Greek - does not allow comments, so I cannot there comment on this calumny against St Robert Bellarmine.

October 20, 2009 11:02 AM
Hans-Georg Lundahl said...
This article - published on "Pope Michael"'s apologetics, he does not recognise Popes after Pius XII and thinks he was validly elected by a lay conclave - Can a heretical Pope be deposed is much more representative for St Robert Bellarmine, the author of this text goes to the heart of what St Robert Bellarmine has to say on the subject of a Pope that is heretical, be it in morals (like forbidding virtues and ordering sins) or in dogmas of faith.

October 20, 2009 11:32 AM
Hans-Georg Lundahl said...
Oh, I did not see your comment:

But he says this only in the context of preserving unity in the local church, so people won't establish their own churches apart from the apostolic traddition. There is thus no dictatorship here, and it is very different from the model of the papacy.

I see no difference except same principle applied in one case world wide (papacy) in the other on local Church (episcopacy according to St Ignatius). Whether it is applicable on world wide level is of course another question.

Also, most Orthodox do not consider Augustine a Church Father.

Thereby differing clearly from St Photius the Great when he was writing the Bibliotheke. I read myself "ho en tois hagiois Augoustinos" and it was not in context of giving someone else's opinion about him.

Nor would they support that he was an advocate of papal authority over all other bishops.

Direct or ordinary? Bossuet would not support that either, Bellarmine would.

In context of conflict where Pope decides? St Augustine did just that when appealing to Rome against the Donatists. Roma locuta est, causa finita est, as the famous phrase goes.

So did Pope Gregory the Great (or The Dialogist): even as all bishops are equal when ... (they are not at fault) ... I know know bishop who cannot when he is at fault be corrected by (the roman bishop, the Pope, at that moment himself, earlier on his predecessors, after his death his successor, and so on). Quoting from memory here.

October 20, 2009 11:43 AM
Hans-Georg Lundahl said...
"Indeed, when you submit to the bishop as you would to Jesus Christ, it is clear to me that you are living not in the manner of men but as Jesus Christ, who died for us, that through faith in his death you might escape dying. It is necessary, therefore—and such is your practice that you do nothing without the bishop, and that you be subject also to the presbytery, as to the apostles of Jesus Christ our hope, in whom we shall be found, if we live in him. It is necessary also that the deacons, the dispensers of the mysteries [sacraments] of Jesus Christ, be in every way pleasing to all men. For they are not the deacons of food and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They must therefore guard against blame as against fire" (Letter to the Trallians 2:1–3 [A.D. 110]).

source


http://www.catholic.com/library/Bishop_Priest_and_Deacon.asp

October 20, 2009 11:48 AM
John Sanidopoulos said...
Hans, please keep your comments for one posting after you have read something, if possible. Your multiple posts are unbearbale.

Also, you clearly have an agenda since you did not properly respond to my previous reply and I don't think you care to discuss the matter. So if youre gonna state an opinion in this forum, keep it to one comment please.

And the quote by Bellarmine is not out of context, but appears in his Catechism as well as in one of his apologeical works which I can't remember off the top of my head. Many other Catholic sources have quoted this. Contact a Bellarmine scholar if you dont want to do the research and he will tell you.

October 20, 2009 11:51 AM
Hans-Georg Lundahl said...


http://www.catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp
and St Augustine is not alone though some of the quotes do not exclude that St Peter was the first bishop and bishop in every city he was, but succeeded by every other bishop, including the other apostles when they became bishops.

October 20, 2009 11:56 AM
John Sanidopoulos said...
I found the Bellarmine quote in his book "Controversies". Look it up. Please, no more posts Hans or I will have to start deleting your comments.

October 20, 2009 11:59 AM
Hans-Georg Lundahl said...
I will.

October 20, 2009 12:21 PM
Hans-Georg Lundahl said...
Which chapter?



John Sanidopoulos said...
I'm not sure. I do not possess the book. I found it in another source. I should note that Bellarmine makes many extreme statements in his apologetic works concerning the authorityof the Pope. The one quoted above isn't even the worst thing he has written on the Pope. So I suggest you do what Bishop Paul did and examine everything he says about papal authority, and you can decide whether you agree or not. Bishop Paul could not accept such things.
October 20, 2009 12:28 PM


Hans-Georg Lundahl said...
"I found the Bellarmine quote in his book "Controversies". ""I'm not sure. I do not possess the book. I found it in another source. "Ah, then you do NOT know that Bellarmine made such a statement!
October 20, 2009 12:35 PM

John Sanidopoulos said...
If Catholics are misquoting their own sources, then shame on them. What can I say. Like I said, I have peronally read many horrific things Bellarmine has said.
October 20, 2009 12:37 PM

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...
Because, you see, you do not know if the book quoting him misunderstood or not.
October 20, 2009 12:37 PM

John Sanidopoulos said...
I have absolutely no doubts. Im surprised you would deny this. Please do the research. Ive narrowed down your search for you.
October 20, 2009 12:39 PM

Hans-Georg said...
"If Catholics are misquoting their own sources"

Well, bishop Paul did not exactly remain a Catholic, did he?

John Sanidopoulos said...
I didnt get my source from him. Please do your own research. If I had the book I would do it. When I go to the local Catholic Seminary library I also will look it up. Stop being so argumentative please.
October 20, 2009 12:42 PM

John Sanidopoulos said...

Ok, I found the exact source to help you in your research: "Tractatus de potestate Summi Pontificis in rebus temporalibus, adversus Gulielmum Barclay" in ch. 13. Also in Controversies, "On Papal Supremecy" iv.5.

And here is a more detailed quote from Bellarmine: "If the Pope should command vice, or prohibit virtue, the church is obliged to believe vice to be good and virtue to be evil. All the sanctions of the Apostolic see are so to be understood, as if confirmed by the voice of St. Peter himself; whatsoever the Church, doth determine, whatever it doth appoint, is perpetual and irrevocable, and to be observed by all men. Christ has bestowed on the Pope, who is Peter's successor, the same infallible spirit that he had; and, therefore, the Pope's decretory letters are to be received as if they were the words of St. Peter, and to be accounted as the very Bible itself."

This also has sources for the quote:
http://books.google.com/books?id=FCMQAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=bellarmine+on+virtue+vice+and+the+pope&source=bl&ots=JZcajxkpFp&sig=F4Yp2qUgKml5sB7MTJ_FV5snvUU&hl=en&ei=efTdSoiZNIWd8AbRuYh0&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CBgQ6AEwBjgy

Here is more of Bellarmine:
http://books.google.com/books?id=dCXSAAAAMAAJ&pg=PT232&lpg=PT232&dq=bellarmine+on+virtue+vice+and+the+pope&source=bl&ots=5a5bpOBp3A&sig=aKjhbD1deGlGRIinpJK5WFtJa6Q&hl=en&ei=xO7dSvHHGtGo8AbZus1f&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBg

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

Your FIRST reference is from a book by William Craig Brownlee who was certainly neither friendly to Bellarmine, nor simply neutral. I'll be back soon for second reference.

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

Your SECOND is from a book that has been in a "Presbyterian library", it's authors are Archibald Bower, Samuel Hanson Cox. The former was a Scotsman who was Jesuit, Church of England and Jesuit again. The latter is a presbyterian. Now, presbyterians are neither friends of St Robert Bellarmine, nor simply neutral. And at that time ... well not always honest either. Or, at best, as misunderstanding as I said of bishop Paul right earlier.

It gives a reference for the quote though. De Romano Pontifice, I. 4. ch 5 - When we get THERE, things may look differently.

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

Not found yet, BUT, while we are waiting, something from his second book of same work, quoted with introductory presentation by a sedisvacantist. On the Roman Pontiff, an extract from St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.

Look if you find it consistent with the allegation that Bellarmine had as his own thesis (rather than quoting others) that if the pope command vice and condemn virtue we are bound to the pope ...

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

Another quote from Bellarmine, introduced by comparison with St Thomas Aquinas:

Implicit in Saint Thomas's teaching, however, is that the Pope who commits "scandal concerning the faith" remains the Pope, though he may be rebuked and corrected, as was John XXII. This same Catholic principle is summarized by the great Doctor of the Church, St. Robert Bellarmine, who wrote in his work De Romano Pontifice:

Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff that aggresses the body, it is also licit to resist the one who aggresses souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and by preventing his will from being executed; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these acts are proper to a superior.


Here is my immediate source for this quote.

However St Robert Bellarmine also thought that such a thing could never happen. God would not allow it, he thought.

21 commentaires:

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

This post has been saved on webcite:

http://www.webcitation.org/5kgZ8JXet

It has a short url in original format: http://o-x.fr/yaa.

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

First reference given by John is now compressed as http://o-x.fr/fb-.

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

Second reference is now compressed as http://o-x.fr/0-3.

Clicking them will get you to the misquotes from Bellarmine. Scrolling up will get you to covers, it is a question of antiquated Proetstant books. Even without scrolling, you will find authors on these works, and these authors are NOT St Robert Bellarmine.

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

http://o-x.fr/t1m = Bellarmino, Il catechismo.

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

When trying to find De Romano Pontifice, I stumbled on http://o-x.fr/kf0 (kay, eff, zero) = Lumen Gentium, which cites that work somewhere.

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

Here we find, in French, a reference to De Romano Pontifice, book five chapter six, where St Robert Bellarmine says that, as the soul commandeth the body, the Roman Pontiff has a right to intervene if the "prince" (i e secular power) should legislate against the good of souls. THAT allegation from first reference offered by John is therefore correct.

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

Oh, forgot the link, short url http://o-x.fr/fu8

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

Catalogues de toutes les bibliothèques municipales de Paris.fr :

Résultats de la recherche
Votre recherche: Mots recherchés="De Romano Pontifice" et Titre="De Romano Pontifice"

Il n'y a pas de document correspondant à votre recherche.

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

Résultats de la recherche
Votre recherche: Auteur="Robert Bellarmin"

Il n'y a pas de document correspondant à votre recherche.

Anonyme a dit…

In case you did not realise that you should click title to get to the blog post on MYSTAGOGY, I have a short url to it: http://o-x.fr/hc0

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

And HERE I link to real quote: Pseudoquote identified. What De Romano Pontifice, book IV, chapter V really says (quote)

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

Here is a google search http://o-x.fr/b8v on the surname of that exfranciscan bishop and Barcelona, a city where he claims to have been and have been obliged to leave. Funnily enough ALL links are to reprints of this article. Even the one named "Bishop Barcelona" only links to it in English and in Greek.

Did the man exist before writing this piece? Did the piece exist before recent "republishing" on internet?

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

Further faults of fact in the mystagogy post

Anonyme a dit…

http://o-x.fr/4ug - Roman Catholic martyrs in Mexico (where that bishop Paul is said to have been killed, by people trying to make it appear it were by a Catholic fanatic)

maryvictrix a dit…

Hans-Georg,

Thank you for your work. May God continue to bless you with the Spirit of Lepanto.

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

Thank You, Father Angelo!

Do you read French?

Non, Noël ne coincide pas "plus ou moins" avec les Saturnalies (et Toussaints n'est pas Samhain, voir les commentaires)

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

http://o-x.fr/j05 and http://o-x.fr/mr0 (zero, not owe, on both)include my posted comments in debate with Orthodox. Continued on http://o-x.fr/9xw.

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

Mon retour des Orthodoxes à la Société St Pie X, III:

25 L'abbé Pierre était pire que je ne croyait ... (ci... 26 Consécration de Russie - peut un orthodoxe être d'accord?... 27 Miracle du 10 juillet 1628, Carpentras 28 Lien à vieux message sur Ste Ursule (cliquer ici) 29 St Pie X, son œuvre en six actes (sermon à St Nicolas du Chardonnet)... 30 Dostoïno iest - il est digne (lien, cliquez ce tit... 31 St François d'Assise (lien en titre) 32, le décisif, en anglais: a Mystagogy posts certainly false allegation on St Robert Bellarmine... - b Pseudoquote identified. What De Romano Pontifice, ... really says - c Further faults of fact in the Mystagogy post 33 Dans le jardin de l'épouse du Christ fleurissent trois miracles... 34 Je confesse ... 35/36 Trois grandes ... et combien de petites? - Solidaire avec les bouddhistes? Non.

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

Links, mostly, including to Fr. Huneycutt, Bishop Williamson, John Sandinopoulos, and some of my comments, these being English counterpart to "Mon retour des Orthodoxes à la FSSPX":

1 Hungarians do play guitar (link) 2 China 3 Orthodixie: "Of course Sponge Bob is gay" (link) 4 Dale Ahlquist: "G.K. Chesterton and The Perils of ... 5 "Generous Orthodoxy" defends fallibilism? 6 Brain death diagnosis kills? (link) 7a "Kill your parents" +40ys=Educate your children! (link) b I don't believe in Weathermen c How e v e r 8 "When does His Grace Hilarion sleep?" /Orthodixie ... 9 Airport Tyranny/Dinoscopus (link) 10 Mark Pivarunas, bishop, speaks (link) 11 Between Sunday of Genealogy and Christmas Day (links) 12 Two courageous men, two heavily conformist communities... 13 Reading time for Mgr Williamson! 14 Update 1: Mgr Williamson apologises for hurting people... 15 Update 3: some do not apologise or avoid schism (update 2 is in French series) 16 Count-down to St Patrick's - a link to his "breast plate"... 17 Happy St Patrick's day, all of you ... 18 Annunciation 19 Happy Annunciation, Old Calendarists! - 20 Great and Holy Tuesday (link to Fr. James) - 21 Orthodox Holy Week (link to Fr Huneycutt) - 22 Christ is risen! - 23 Il est vraiment ressuscité 24 Piracy and slavehunt are not Christian things 25 A book and a site they might not want you to read ... 26 Today's celebrations: 27 Blessed feast of the Dormition! 28 My dear Bishop Williamson, if I had earned money a... 29 Brother Dimond refutes claim that Shroud of Turin is a fake (link, youtube)... 30 Am I too libertarian for FSSPX? Hope not. 31 a Mystagogy posts certainly false allegation on St Robert Bellarmine... - b Pseudoquote identified. What De Romano Pontifice, ... really says - c Further faults of fact in the Mystagogy post

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

New link to John Sandinopoulos' blogpost: http://o-x.fr/2f87

Anonyme a dit…

New links:

tiny.cc/f2rmz tiny.cc/ipmu0 tiny.cc/c2gxq